Date: 2017-10-02 11:49 am (UTC)
danieldwilliam: (Default)
From: [personal profile] danieldwilliam
Ah, Catalonia.

I'm very pro-Catalonia. I've been there quite often. My mum was there in the 1960's. I have a relative who was there in the 1930's.

I think the Spanish constitution is wrong. Legally, I don't think it meets Spain's obligations under its UN membership to respect the right to self-determination. I suspect it doesn't pass similar EU membership requirements. It's also a bad idea. Unless you are actually prepared to put tanks on to the streets of a large part of your country, you shouldn't have clauses in your constitution that ban independence aspirations in autonomous parts of your state. Doing so can only lead to violence and eventually terrorism and civil war. (See my relative who travelled in Catalonia in the 1930's for how much fun that is.)

I think a number of Catalans think they were forced, more or less, at gun point in to signing up to the current constittuional arrangements and that, like any promise extracted with threats of violence it is not binding.

I appreciate that I'm biased but I also think that there is a long history of the Castillian authorities taking advantage of Catalonia and treating them badly which goes back to Crown of Aragon and the Counts of Barcelona and runs through the last 500 years, perhaps 1,000. I think some Catalans would see the relationship as one where Catalonia works out what the next economic wave is going to be, does that very well, generates lots of wealth and the rest of Spain decides to appropriate that wealth at gun point. Happened with the thallocracy in the 16th century, happened with the Industrial Revolution in the early 20th century.

Setting riot police on half the population of one the most important parts of your state is only going to end badly.

Particularly as the Spanish government had an option to hold a referendum and win it - just like the British government did in 2014.

Date: 2017-10-04 11:03 am (UTC)
danieldwilliam: (Default)
From: [personal profile] danieldwilliam
Yeah, I think so. I think they'd have gotten a result much like our own independence referendum.

I can't imagine have had Spanish state riot police rampaging through the streets of Catalonia will have made Catalans less keen on independence - although I reckon it will have made quite a lot of people wonder if independence following a violent resistance is worth it. Which of course is the point of using violence in politics.

Date: 2017-10-02 12:06 pm (UTC)
momentsmusicaux: (Default)
From: [personal profile] momentsmusicaux
Edinburgh Park Central is a dead zone at the weekends...

Date: 2017-10-02 01:11 pm (UTC)
calimac: (Default)
From: [personal profile] calimac
Coming from a country which fought a civil war to prevent bits of itself from getting up and stalking out of the federation, but which also proposed 14 Points of self-determination for world government, I feel somewhat conflicted about the Catalonian situation.

I see that "It is now more than four years since the introduction of major reforms to legal aid, which made it harder than ever to get free access to a lawyer for those who cannot afford one." Four years. That means it was done by the coalition, the one that was supposedly so much less noxious than Tories straight up. Uh-huh.

Date: 2017-10-02 02:03 pm (UTC)
drplokta: (Default)
From: [personal profile] drplokta
Since the claim that "the coalition did fewer bad things than a majority Conservative government would have done" is not equivalent to "the coalition did no bad things", and has been comprehensively proved over the past two years, I'm not sure what your point is regarding the coalition.

Date: 2017-10-02 03:22 pm (UTC)
calimac: (Default)
From: [personal profile] calimac
You're not, eh? Uh-huh.

Date: 2017-10-02 03:26 pm (UTC)
drplokta: (Default)
From: [personal profile] drplokta
And I'm still not sure, since that comment was not especially enlightening. As far as I can see, you're fighting a straw man.

Date: 2017-10-02 03:54 pm (UTC)
calimac: (Default)
From: [personal profile] calimac
You really don't get it, do you?

So now I have to start giving my condescending explanation:

If the LDs couldn't at least mitigate things that are this bad, or - even worse - if this is the mitigated version of the original proposal, they didn't accomplish very much by signing on to the agenda. The list of bad things enacted, starting with the university tuition business, is very long. The list of bad things prevented is much shorter. The list of good things is almost nonexistent. The one thing that the LDs should have insisted on doing - as I just finished saying in this very journal last week - they totally muffed. Totally.

And - as I also pointed out - this is the party that actually boasted about the whip hand they had over the Tories.

So my point, then, is that they got very little for selling their souls.

"Bad things were done" is not something that you just shrug off. You could sign on to people a lot worse than the Tories and use the same excuse - people have done that; Franz von Papen rather infamously did it; and the excuse wouldn't be any hollower even though the deeds were far worse.

Date: 2017-10-02 04:00 pm (UTC)
naath: (Default)
From: [personal profile] naath
afaict Clegg sold his soul for a referendum on av. I expect some of the worse exsesses were mitigated a bit, but not so much you'd notice. Fees were a PR disaster, but not, it seems, actually putting people off going.

Date: 2017-10-02 08:03 pm (UTC)
calimac: (Default)
From: [personal profile] calimac
Well, I think that first reply was unnecessarily overwrought. Let me try again, more simply.

All I meant by my original, single word comment, "Uh-huh," was to express wry confirmation that the coalition arrangement was not very successful at keeping the Tories from being Tories.

The reason for being wry about it was that there were plenty of LDs at the time, and even some since then, who think that the coalition was pretty successful in that regard, with only a few flaws.

But this legal aid story looks like a major flaw to me. The alternative was not a Conservative majority government which would have been worse - a Conservative majority was not on offer in the 2010-15 Parliament. But the LDs enabled a lot more than they claimed they would, then they should have, or that they could have.

Date: 2017-10-02 11:10 pm (UTC)
calimac: (Default)
From: [personal profile] calimac
You seem to have an intuitive grasp of the point. Others might not.

I'm conflicted about the whole coalition thing. On the one hand, if the LDP isn't to descend into what David Steel once mockingly called "a nice little debating society," it's going to have to get down in the scrum and cooperate from time to time. And if it isn't going to become just an appendage to Labour, sometimes that cooperation is going to have to be with the Conservatives.

But it has to be on the right terms. It wasn't right for Jeremy Thorpe in 1974, and it shouldn't have been right for Nick Clegg in 2010. I think he could have gotten more. Too willing a cooperation just enabled the Tories to be Tories and give the LDs the moral blame for it. If you're going to sell your soul, at least get a good price.

Date: 2017-10-03 06:49 am (UTC)
drplokta: (Default)
From: [personal profile] drplokta
Of course the alternative to the coalition was a Conservative majority government. It would (most likely) have been a repeat of 1974, with the newly-elected minority government calling fresh elections after a few months and winning a majority. The great achievement of the Lib Dems in the coalition was the Fixed Term Parliament Act preventing Cameron from doing this, and ensuring that the brakes were kept on the Tories for five years instead of six months.

Date: 2017-10-03 10:23 am (UTC)
danieldwilliam: (Default)
From: [personal profile] danieldwilliam
I think that is a fair point.

Given the very real hysteria there was at the time about the UK's financial stability I think it was a coalition government or new elections in October 2010.

Date: 2017-10-02 03:56 pm (UTC)
calimac: (Default)
From: [personal profile] calimac
Did you read the comments on your own entry of September 25?

Date: 2017-10-02 03:59 pm (UTC)
calimac: (Default)
From: [personal profile] calimac
Well, then, you shouldn't act so puzzled about the point I was making, because it was made then.

Date: 2017-10-02 08:03 pm (UTC)
calimac: (Default)
From: [personal profile] calimac
Blimey, I've already quoted myself twice and linked once.

Date: 2017-10-02 02:21 pm (UTC)
danieldwilliam: (Default)
From: [personal profile] danieldwilliam
I was mulling over the impact of the housing and office development at Edinburgh Park on the tram extension business case.

Clearly, more people living and working there can't hurt but I was wondering how close to capacity the trams were at rush hour and therefore whether adding extra demand would actually turn in to extra revenue if it can't be met.

If you put a bunch of housing next to the tram stop then that means more people moving away from that tram stop in the morning and towards it in the evening.

I wonder if there is much spare capacity going to Edinburgh Park at rush hour.

Date: 2017-10-02 02:34 pm (UTC)
danieldwilliam: (Default)
From: [personal profile] danieldwilliam
They probably can. You might be able to increase the frequency from every 5 minutes to every 4. Not sure I'd risk going much above that - you'd be looking at a wall of trams on Princes Street if anything went even slightly wrong. So that's another 1,500 spaces. Although I think that's 1,500 spaces in all directions, so only 750 extra spaces going to Edinburgh Park from the city.

Too many trams

Date: 2017-10-02 08:20 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] nojay
They only run the trams on the 5-minute schedule during rush hour. At that point there's often a tram on Princes Street trying to get out to the West End stop wedged behind a row of busses, a tram stuck at St. Andrews Square behind it, one at York Place terminus holding up the one coming in FROM St. Andrews Square leaving a tram stuck on the other side of the Princes Street stop and... I've been on trams out as far out as Murrayfield which couldn't move on to Haymarket because of the tram in Princes Street trying to get out to the West End. All the stops were full.

There's a limit to how many trams can run through the city centre when it's busy, push more trams in there and they just stack up and grind to a halt.

As for the idea of expanding housing etc. in the Edinburgh Park and Gyle area area, dealing with commuting from there is easy, just run more bus services. They can even serve commuters who don't live right next to the tram line.

Re: Too many trams

Date: 2017-10-03 10:16 am (UTC)
danieldwilliam: (Default)
From: [personal profile] danieldwilliam
I think anything that takes buses off Princes Street is to be welcomed.

I fear the geography is a bit against us. Having two big hills in the middle of your city is awkward at times.

Re: Too many trams

Date: 2017-10-03 08:28 am (UTC)
danieldwilliam: (Default)
From: [personal profile] danieldwilliam
I'm more than happy to be guided by your greater experience of east-west travel. I'm more of a north-south guy myself.

And yes to more buses. I think the city bus service could really do with more buses that aren't routed through Princes Street. Princes Street seems close to being full to me.

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